PORTIONS OF A CONVERSATION
With
Giuseppe Pepe Remey
FEBRUARY 1994
GUARDIAN OF THE BAHAI FAITH
Pepe: The guardian is an administrative institution set up by Abdu'l-Baha, not Baha'u'llah! Abdu'l-Baha certainly could not add in any way to his father's world order. You see all the Bahais are confused. They're trying to give the Universal House of Justice, Abdu'l-Baha's administrative order, a spiritual quality which it never had. It was never intended! The only spiritual contact that the Bahais can have would be through the spiritual successor to Baha'u'llah which was Abdu'l-Baha, then Shoghi Effendi, then Mason Remey. It just happens that during Shoghi Effendi's lifetime that he was both guardian, which is only an administrative title like the president, but Shoghi happened to be the guardian AND the spiritual successor. And they confused the two, they forgot he was the spiritual successor and they considered him the guardian, and they made the guardian a SPIRITUAL person which IT IS NOT!!
Bob: Yes sir, I understand!
Pepe: Now if you study that very carefully you will see that it all fits into juxtaposition.
Bob: Yes sir, I believe that I have and that my research has been thorough. This is the reason for my call sir.
Pepe: Oh really?
Bob: Yes sir.
Pepe: Oh, I'm sorry that I burdened you...
Bob: Oh you haven't, sir! It is not a burden that I have not already seen... But I have been, well, perhaps hasty to rush forward and yet apprehensive to rush forward for not absolutely sure of the direction of the movement!
Pepe: Well, you are on the right track if you follow that!
Bob: Well what has happened, sir, if I may please explain and give you some background so you might understand my stand and position.
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: In 1979, I was a young man, I had come up through a very rough lifestyle out in western Montana. I was born in Missoula Montana in 1959...
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: Then in 1979 I discovered the Bahai faith through Dr. Leland Jensen.
Pepe: Oh, yes, yes, yes!
Bob: And I was indoctrinated into his faith. But what happened was, you see, I have a learning disability called dyslexia...
Pepe: Oh yes...
Bob: And the dyslexia in my lifetime had held me out from becoming entrenched in the ways that man indoctrinates people- the way that they are programming them today.
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: And I had been studying then, from the time that I was fourteen, and I was nineteen at the time I met Dr. Jensen, the philosophies of Hermes, the Hermetic formulas.
Pepe: Ahh- yes, yes, yes!
Bob: And these formulas have been lain up in the Orders- the Masonic orders of the Knights and the noblemen who came back from the Crusades during the Holy wars in the dark ages to Europe.
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: And they have then lain up the secrets and the mysteries of the builders of the temple of Solomon...
Pepe: Yes!
Bob: ...in the Masonic orders here in this country.
Pee: I see!
Bob: My godfather, you see I was a foundling, I was born a bastard without a father.
Pepe: Ahh...
Bob: Unwanted by my blood father who was named Nielson.
Pepe: I SEE.
BOB: But my godfather then was of Germanic descent and he took me in and trained me since I was young.
Pepe: I see...
Bob: So I was held out from really being- I don't know how to say- but misguided from the errors of the worldly. And so by the time I was 14, I was studying Ananda Margha, this Paramahansa, you know, from India...
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: ...who has been directly influenced by the teachings of Baha'u'llah when he was in Bahji. You see, it was Sulayman Khan who Baha'u'llah sent to India, (I don't know if I say his name right), but he sent him to India and he influenced Swami Yukteswar, who was the teacher of Parmanansa.
Pepe: You know Mason Remey spent time in Kurdistan...
Bob: I see.
Pepe: He must've been familiar with all of that.
Bob: Right! Well what I had happen then was between the ages of fourteen and nineteen, I studied these philosophies and I found the Seven Valleys and the Five aspects of spirit in the teachings of Paramahansa.
Pepe: Oh that's wonderful! I weep when I read those writings...
Bob: You see the people of the time were not ready to embrace Baha'u'llah.
Pepe: Yes!
Bob: So he (Sulayman Khan) taught them (the people of India) as to fulfilling their prophesies in Hindi. He said 'O yes, of course I know the Mahatma Avatar, he is in BAHJI'. This is where the tradition of the "Babaji" in Hindi comes from!
Pepe: I see. Well you certainly have gotten yourself involved!
Bob: Yes sir...
Pepe: You are very much involved!
Bob: It is my life's devotion and my goal to set the things straight as to the truth and the clarity as to what God has intended!
Pepe: Yes! Well you know those people in Haifa created that theory about Bada that God changed... boy, that's absurd!!
Bob: Oh, absolutely!
Pepe: God did not change his mind and logic. There is no other way!
Bob: No. Absolutely! Absolutely!
Pepe: When you really get involved in true religion the first thing you must admit and you must understand is that true Faith presupposes doubt.
Bob: Yes.
Pepe: And you may NEVER be absolutely certain. Baha'u'llah himself explains that and Abdu'l-Baha too. If we could prove the thing, then no Faith is required. Therefore when people offer you so-called proof, that's absurd! You find your own proof!
Bob: Yes sir!
Pepe: You find things that prove to you certain things, but no one can offer you ANY proof.
Bob: Yes! So, sir, in this way then I was prepared, you understand, as a young man...
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: ...to receive Baha'u'llah.
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: And I discovered the Bab and Baha'u'llah, through Dr. Jensen's teachings.
Pepe: Well you know, in the beginning, he wasn't totally off the track. He went berserk when he was in prison you know.
Bob: I understand. He was already on the berserk path here with all of his claims when I met him in 79!
Pepe: He's a very fascinating person.
Bob: He is very fascinating!
Pepe: And I've met other members of his family. They are very, uhh...
Bob: I knew Alfred before he died.
Pepe: You knew Alfred?
Bob: Yes sir!
Pepe: I knew him too.
Bob: Yes sir, a wonderful man.
Pepe: Wonderful!
Bob: And Opal, also!
Pepe: I only spoke to her once on the telephone, I never met her, but she certainly was, a charming, dear sweet soul.
Bob: Yes, she was really the one who held him together!
Pepe: Now Dr.Jensen is married to a woman whose name is Wind,
Bob: Oh yes-
Pepe: And she is a horrible person!
Bob: A horrible wind from hell!
Pepe: Absolutely a big windbag, I say.
Bob: Oh, sir!
Pepe: And I told him to read Homer's, you know Ulysses... you know, the Iliad and the, the...
Bob: The Odyssey.
Pepe: The Odyssey. Now in the Odyssey, when Ulysses is coming back he has some bags of wind you know...
Bob: Yes.
Pepe: ...that were given to him and they all held onto these big bags and of course the sailors were very curious and just before the ship pulled into port they were curious and they let go of those windbags and the ship was thrown way off course.
Bob: Yes sir!
Pepe: I told Mr.Jensen to read that because his bag of Wind
is blowing him of course!
Bob: Yes, that is what I was saying is that Opal, the fine gem of Abha kingdom, was the only, only thing that kept him half-sane!
Pepe: Yes, half sane.
Bob: And since she has died he has gone absolutely off the brink of holy destruction!
Pepe: Yes, yes! That's true...
Bob: You see, I was raised in western Montana and my reflections are that of Native American sentiment.
Pepe: Listen, my boy, you are spending all of your money now... you better hang up!
Bob: Let me please get to my point. The point of my call is most sincere, please, I hope that you...
Pepe: Oh, I believe you! I believe you!
Bob: Well what we have found, I have found many books by Mason in the public libraries here in America. These books are virtually untouched since they were placed there in the twenties and thirties.
Pepe: (Laughing) I am not surprised!
Bob: I mean, they are just untouched and they are the most beautiful illuminations of the Bahai Faith that I have ever, ever seen.
Pepe: Well he was a wonderful person, let me tell you. I took care of him to his dying day. I am sitting on the bed he died in right now... I was lying down when you telephoned. I'm sitting on the bed that he died in and I took care of him, he was ninety-nine years and nine months, only left three months to be a hundred. And I loved him dearly, he was a sweet wonderful... you can't imagine what a charming, wonderful person he was. Everybody adored him!
Bob: Yes sir... I have read as much of his writings- and yours also- that I have been able to come in contact with, and I have found...
Pepe: Well don't pay too much attention to what I've written, most of it was in defense of Mr. Remey. If they hadn't attacked him the way they had, I probably would never have troubled myself, because you see in all of those writings I tried to explain what Mason intended. It was all mostly in defense of Mason's stand.
Bob: Yes sir, what you have done, like I am saying, is that it has been only through your letters and what you have said to Dr. Jensen, because you see in the beginning here through all of my case I was his last apprentice. I apprenticed for five and a half years in his print shop-
Pepe: Oh, Really?
Bob: Yes Sir. And I took on the trade of printing and now I am a master printer!
Pepe: Did you know that young man, Daniel Scherr?
Bob: Yes sir, I am acquainted with him.
Pepe: Well, he was a wonderful boy!
Bob: Yes, he did wonderful research out of the archives in New York...
Pepe: Yes...
Bob: But he fell into such dismay after the term of the nineties because, you know, in the first early part of the nineties here the research went to zenith,
Pepe: Uh-huh.
Bob: But he fell out because the Doc just wants to grab it all for himself!
Pepe: Oh...
Bob: And Danny burned all of his files. He did wonderful research!
Pepe: Oh, he was a good boy! I liked him immensely! But they all started out... they all tried to get me to bend down to accepting Jensen.
Bob: NO!
Pepe: All of them did! Do you know that young man, the Glenn Goldman?
Bob: Yes I know Glenn, and I know Neal Chase, too.
Pepe: Well you know Glenn came to see me, but he will probably never admit that to you. But unknown to...I never told anyone about this, you are the only one that I've told that to. Well, he's a good boy, but I don't think he is as determined as you are!
Bob: Well, I...what I am looking for...
Pepe: I don't think he's absolutely sure of himself. The other boy, Matthew, uh, what's his name...
Bob: Matthew? I know him, too.
Pepe: What is his first name?
Bob: Brent!
Pepe: Brent, Brent, yes, I corresponded with him for several years to put him on the right track...
Bob: Well, what has happened for me here is that, well do you remember Sara Toole?
Pepe: Oh yes, yes Sara Toole, she was very, very attached to Mr. Jensen and he did some things for her but she turned against him! She used to write to me but I haven't heard from her in some time...
Bob: Well she wrote to you some time ago and heard no reply and out of respect she has not wanted to bother you if you did not want to be...
Pepe: Well I discouraged them, you know.
Bob: Yes, I understand.
Pepe: I only did that because there was so much writing, writing... and they were indoctrinated by Mr. Jensen and it's very difficult for them to give up some of the things that he taught them which are wrong. Rather than stir them up and create trouble I just let them go, you know.
Bob: Yes... Well what I have done, sir, as you can tell, I have done some research. I have been researching this pretty much on my own since the time I was with Mr. Jensen because I found early on, that using the criteria's of Hermes, he did not measure up as to disclosing the whole truth, because he was holding back things, like your letters, and other documentations...
Pepe: Well listen he is a fool, a liar, and an impostor! He lies! And I never... I always try to be nice to him...
Bob: Right...
Pepe: Because you know, Mason Remey prayed for him until the day he died, hoping that he would come to his senses!
Bob: Yes sir. And what I have done, and I will beg your forgiveness, is I have written him a lengthy document
stating my stand from the stance of the research. I have not insisted on my opinions, but merely what has happened to me in my life...
Pepe: It sounds very interesting.
Bob: ...due to my conviction in this way that I have tried to describe.
Pepe: Yes it sounds like a very nice, a very wonderful piece of work!
Bob: Well what I would like to, and that's why I am calling, is that I am asking for your permission to send you a copy. I have been a little bit hasty and I have already sent it to him last year, and I would like to send it to you and if there are any problems with the document that I need to be informed of or retract then maybe you could let me know...
Pepe: I suppose you have my address...
Bob: If it has not changed since all of the letter writing.
Pepe: It will never change. Listen, I would be very interested, I would be very happy to have a copy of that!
Bob: I would be very glad to send you one...
Pepe: Oh, I believe you! Listen, I would have cut you off long ago on this telephone call, but I let you go because I believe you... I believe in your sincerity!
Bob: Well, well thank you sir! That is really all that I have to come to you with, as that everything else that I could do and am would fall short...
Pepe: Don't say that at all! There is a very precious and priceless quality- sincerity- my boy, you can't imagine. I am very fortunate to have talked with you.
Bob: Well, it has been, it has been a guidance and in truth, a grace, because I would not have been able to make it all this way.
Pepe: Yes!
Bob: Also, what I must disclose to you is what I have found in the different archives. Now you see Mr. Mason's work is in the public libraries throughout the country, but in the archives of the Grand Lodge of the Masonic order, I have found, well specifically, two documents of Baha'u'llah's in translation...
Pepe: Yes...
Bob: ...and then in the Theological library, I also found another book containing actually seven tablets but one of them is combined so the number is 6.
Pepe: Oh, yes.
Bob: One of the Tablets that I found in the Masonic Lodge is a continuation by number page of the one that I found in the Theological library.
Pepe: Yes, Well, you've been working very hard! Alot of Baha'u'llah's works have not yet been translated, you know.
Bob: Correct. What I am looking at now are the Tablets that have been translated through the violation early- like the turn of the century copies that were placed in the libraries then under the administration of Abdu'l Baha, probably under the guidance of Mason.
Pepe: Only what was done under Shoghi Effendi has any true value- and Mason Remey.
Bob: Correct!
Pepe: But beyond that, whatever the people in Haifa have been writing or the people in- I had a contact with the people in Wilmette also- they're ALL off the track. They're ALL ENTIRELY OFF THE TRACK!
Bob: Was this your paper on infallibility?
Pepe: What's that?
Bob: Your paper on infallibility?
Pepe: Yes, yes.
Bob: I have read it. It is a wonderful piece of work! I have greatly appreciated it and it has helped me divinely.
I have also read Mason's work on Baha'i Manuscripts.
Pepe: Yes...
Bob: You know the pamphlet- the document- published in 1923.
Pepe: Yes...
Bob: September 21st....
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: This document has lead me to assume the preciousness of the documents that we have in translation as divinely placed...
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: ...by that divine order that was working through the administrative order when it was sanctified.
Pepe: Yes!
Bob: I understand that all of the work that has been done since the violation is clouded- it leads astray.
Pepe: Yes, yes...
Bob: What I have also found in the Masonic Lodge accom-panying the three tablets of Baha'u'llah which is the the Tablet of the Branch, the Kitab-el-Ahd, and the Lawh-el-Akdas.
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: I believe that these three tablets that were revealed in Adrionaople, Akka and Bagdad are representative of the three-part Covenant of Baha'u'llah.
Pepe: I see.
Bob: And the Surih of Hykl was also with it. The Surih Hykl is a very specific Tablet and in the research and history Baha'u'llah had it placed and written in a very specific way in the shape of a pentacle with the other tablets to the Kings of the world.
Pepe: Yes...
Bob: This Tablet is, from what I understand, its the Temple where this Covenant dwells. So then the Theological Tablets were placed in the Theological archives, the Tablet of Tarazat, the Tablet of the World, Words of Paradise, the Tablet of Tajalleyat, The Glad tidings, the Tablet of Ishrakat, and the Tablet on the Most Great Infallibility.
Pepe: Yes...
Bob: These Tablets are one work.
Pepe: I have copies of those...
Bob: Yes sir. But What this has done for me is it has given me , I don't know how to say, divine guidance, but I feel bereft of the ability to reveal this to the world as that I am NOT the guardian.
Pepe: Well... You never know! (laughs)
Bob: Well you see...if you remember Sara Toole.
Pepe: Yes.
Bob: Well, in 1989 she was dying she was dying from anorexia...
Pepe: Yes, she told me all about that story.
Bob: She mentioned me then to you in her letter.
Pepe: Ohhh...
Bob: I am the one who came to town and worked to deprogram her from the cult worship!
Pepe: I see...
Bob: I have been working inside of Dr. Jensen's affiliation. I have not been indoctrinating people!
Pepe: Well, he can't harm you if you understand what the truth is and you are on your own . He can't harm you, you understand? It's only if you follow him!
Bob: It is not for myself that I am concerned, it is for the words of God that Baha'u'llah has revealed that he is
misusing to lead the innocents astray into darkness!
Pepe: Well, it may be a test. You know he may be an instrument of God. We cannot know. The important thing is that, you see, if Dr. Jensen hadn't attacked Mr. Remey the way he had, I probably wouldn't have gotten so involved. Having to defend myself and Mason Remey has necessitated me to take an interest and to go deeply into the problem, and I probably wouldn't have done otherwise. He may well be an instrument of God.
Bob: This is what I have found!
Pepe: And the people around him are like the fallen angels who followed Lucifer when Lucifer rebelled against God.
Bob: Yes sir.
Pepe: You see he needs to have a sustaining force behind him, otherwise he will fall apart. Just consider those people as poor souls. But I like Neal Chase. I like him as a person. But he's a damned fool! Do you understand?
Bob: Yes, I do, absolutely!
Pepe: Because he's so blinded... He must be a part of a whole clan to bolster Dr. Jensen. Jensen needs to have these people like Wind and Neal Chase and some others that have been very close to him .
Bob: Yes sir.
Pepe: But recently another left him, one of his top people, you know. I forget her name.
Bob: Anita?
Pepe: That's right.
Bob: I understand about your health, and the strength that it takes to deal with these forces. But is it not true that as they assert the ill wind of misguided direction, misleading those chosen away from God's direction, is it not true that there needs be a voice for the Abha protection speaking like thus...
Pepe: O yes, yes!
Bob: "O Thou the Tongue of this Temple! Verily we have created Thee in My Name, the Merciful",
Pepe: Yes!
Bob: "and taught Thee that which was stored in el-Beyan and made Thee to speak for the sake of My great commemoration in the contingent world: Therefore do Thou utter this commemoration and fear thou not from the manifestation of the Satan. Verily for this Thou wast created by My Command, the Protector, the Self-existent. By Thee We made the tongue to utter the revelation of that which was, and by My Dominion We utter of that which is. By Thee we send forth speaking tongues that move with praise in the Supreme Assembly and amongst the people of creation."
This is what Baha'u'llah has spoken to me through-
Pepe: Don't you see that those works speak for themselves? They don need any defense!
Bob: Absolutely, absolutely, but these people that are out there making all of these claims have not the access to the same that I have just read!!
Pepe: Yes... Well look now, I am troubled because you are spending alot of money on this telephone call! Now you better say good-bye to me!
Bob: I will send you my document.
Pepe: Yes send me that and I will read it very willingly.
I'll take my time reading it and I will send you a short note giving you my opinion.
Bob: O, thank you very much!
Pepe: Well thank you for this long call, and I am very happy for you!
Bob: Thank you so much...
Pepe: Now don't lose your way!
Bob: I will hold fast to the writings as you can see, they have led me this far. I just wanted you to know that there are those of us out here truly pursuing from an independent way the Bahai writings.
Pepe: There will be more and more as time goes by and these bad people get lost! You see Dr. Jensen won't live on forever.
Bob: I know...
Pepe: But the teachings of Baha'u'llah are destined to go on way out into the future.
Bob: Yes sir!